A Podcast | Doug Winnie

Pete Neubig: [00:00:18] Welcome back, everybody. And as promised, I actually have my business coach. Uh, Doug Winnie. Doug was my business coach from around 2011 through, I think 2018. The year before we sold the business and literally, uh, taught me a whole new language, the language of business, and got me from being an employee to starting the business to building, building an empire. So, Doug, thanks so much for being here today.

Doug Winnie: [00:00:48] Grateful to be here, Pete. Good to be chatting with you.

Pete Neubig: [00:00:51] So we're going to talk a little bit about your book here in a second. But before we do that, um, I can sit here all day and talk about why a business coach? But as a business coach, why like so you know people are listening. They are either property managers or own a property management firm. What's what's the benefit? Like if they don't have a business coach, what's the benefit of a business coach? Like, why should I have a business coach?

Doug Winnie: [00:01:14] Yeah, it's a good question. And it's a tough question because honestly, nobody really wants a coach, but everybody wants the results what a coach offers. And so it really is about helping people be fitter. If it was a fitness coach, right, you get a fitness coach because you want to run a marathon. You want to decrease your time. You want to be more fit. You want to live longer with a fitness coach. Well, it's exactly the same with a business coach. If you want your business to survive and even get to the point that you guys did, and sell an outsider's opinion. An outsider's, um, help to both teach and hold people accountable is so critical, there's no way I would be, you know, fit without someone showing up at my door at 7 a.m. three times a week. You know, my motivation to do it at the gym is different because we're human, and humans are not as motivated to go the extra little, you know, the extra bit to be better. So whether it's marketing challenges or sales or team is usually the biggest challenge, um, people have to get over because once they start growing and having to deal with that big human component, that's where a lot of things come to play. Uh, because there's not enough systems in place. Sometimes there's not enough cash flow to hire the next person. And so it just kind of gets to be a, um, a bit challenging without somebody to bounce ideas off. Uh, even confidence. One client just came back from three weeks off, and they said today to me, um, Doug, thanks for giving us permission. It's crazy to hear that, for giving us permission to take three weeks off and let the business run without us. And I know you just posted, Pete. Something about, you know, coming back from a vacation and, you know. The business is better when I got back. Team members did amazing things. Right. Same thing happened for this particular client because they. Well, you know, giving them permission. It was just like, no, you can go because you have these people in place. You don't have to check your email. You don't have to check your phone. You can enjoy vacation. I like to say you can go on vacation and be on vacation, and not all businesses are there. So it's the go on vacation and be on vacation. It's one of the goals.

Pete Neubig: [00:03:31] Yeah. You know, one of one of the many, uh, takeaways I had from working with you was, you know, when you own your own business, um, especially early on, you're in the weeds like you are. You're just so in the weeds. And by having by having you or having a business coach, you have somebody who's not in the weeds that can look at things from a different perspective and different point of view, and they're not as emotionally attached to the business. And so you were able to guide us, um, much, much better than we were guiding ourselves because we were so emotionally charged. So, um, and I love what Steve Rosenberg, our, my business, my business partner always says even Michael Jordan had a coach. He was the best in the world at what he did. And he still and he still had a coach. So no thank you for that. All right. So Business Blind Spots is, uh, is a book that you wrote, uh, eliminate the hidden challenges for exponential growth. So let's talk about some of the blind spots that, um, that are, that are out there, that people are, you know, that, that people actually have.

Doug Winnie: [00:04:39] Mhm. Yeah. So, um, I really love chapter three. Chapter three is titled The Secret. Uh, and a blind spot for almost all businesses is what's in chapter three. And chapter three is entirely about marketing and really understanding. I know you know these answers. What is the cost to acquire a lead? What is the cost to acquire a customer? What is the lifetime value of of a client? And so those things are blind to almost all businesses. Big companies have it down pat. They know to the penny. Small business owners don't get it, right? And so I just help them understand that, you know, when you know these numbers, you get to be much more comfortable making marketing investments. Without that, it's a marketing gamble. You don't measure the results. Not doing it all, not knowing what is the target market, not knowing, you know, what would that customer be interested in hearing, right. Why would they listen to that email, or listen or watch your video, or open that and do something on that postcard? What would cause them to do that? And learning that and then measuring the results, which totally changes how businesses grow, because you might be able to realize you get a customer for $30 and that first time you see them, you made 150in profit. And all of a sudden it's like what we call an unlimited marketing budget. Once that's done, I mean, that's one of the biggest beginning things we do with clients is help them understand those numbers.

Pete Neubig: [00:06:14] You know, one of the things you taught me about marketing was if you could, um, if you could market and you didn't have to pay for that client until after you got them right, the marketing spend, i.e. like a referral program. So they come in, you get them, and then you pay out the referral fee. Um, how much can you actually spend on marketing? And you're like, you didn't even wait for the answer. It's like it's infinite. It's infinite amount because you get the money first before you actually spend it. Push it out there. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. So okay, so not knowing your marketing numbers now, if I was new to this and I'm listening to this right now, and I was like, oh man, I really need to know my market numbers. How do you even go about that? Like, do you do you know, like how do you go about that? Like, what do I need a CRM system? Do I like, do I just need a spreadsheet? Like what? What's the what's the first step or the easiest way to start it? You know, and obviously we know we could get way into the weeds on it. But like how do I just know like, okay, what's how many leads do I get and what's my cost per lead?

Doug Winnie: [00:07:14] What I love to do is just make it really simple. So hopefully people have QuickBooks or some accounting system. And if you just look 12 for the last 12 months, uh, last 12 months, anything got put into marketing? You might have paid for a website. You made it paid for SEO, you made it paid for business cards. Um, there's a lot of things you might have done, and hopefully it's categorized correctly inside your accounting system. And you have a number. Let's just say it's $10,000 was put out in the last 12 months. So that's the number that we're going to divide into. And I'd say, well, how many proposals did you put out in the last 12 months? And that's just divide A into B. So if we if we had ten proposals done over a whole year and $10,000 went out, then that's, uh, what is that, 100,000 bucks? Thousand bucks? Yeah, a thousand bucks for each one. Right now, that was just for the cost to acquire the lead and say, well, how many customers did you get from that? And you go, okay, we got five customers from it. Okay. So now it's $2,000 to get a customer and that's all you have to do. Now just look at those numbers and go, well, I paid $1,000 to get a proposal out the door, and I and I paid $2,000 to buy the customer and really think of it that way. And then you go, well, how much is the profit per customer? And this particular example, maybe the profit is $20,000 a year. Like okay. So now be sure you're understanding what the profit was and the cost was. And how often do you want to make that investment, to make that profit.

Pete Neubig: [00:08:49] Now, Doug, when you start getting these numbers down, do you recommend that I look at if I have like a marketing person on site or I'm having a marketing agency, does that go into the cost of marketing for my for my lead or do you break it out? Do you have like two? Do you have a cost per lead just on the, you know, the hard cost and then the cost per lead with, um, you know, with salary or with team?

Doug Winnie: [00:09:13] Yeah. I remember this conversation with you years ago. Right. Um, and it's really so just think of it as if it's a cost that's incremental, then it's added into the marketing costs. If you're going to pay somebody a salary to be on board, then it's not part of it. It's not the cost to acquire the lead, and it's not the cost to acquire the customer. It is part of your marketing budget. But when it comes to just understanding cost to acquire the lead or the customer, just stick to the incremental cost. The outsourced companies, the outsourced printing, anything like that?

Pete Neubig: [00:09:46] Yeah. And once you start knowing those numbers, um, you really can pull lots of levers. Right. Because, like, you know, like, okay, this didn't work. This does work. I can modify this, and you can definitely get that cost per lead down a lot of times, uh, because you start knowing those numbers, you can start tweaking your messaging like that.

Doug Winnie: [00:10:07] And that's, you know, to improving it is one thing just measuring it at the beginning because almost always, um, there is especially in the property management business, there's cost to acquire the customer. And it might take three months or six months before you break even. Right. But that's and then you can work to decrease the cost and increase the cash flow with lots of different strategies. Um, but some companies is not like that, like one of the vet clinics that we worked with at the same time as you guys, their cost to acquire customer was under $30. And so once that was understood, like they make that money back in profit the very first visit.

Pete Neubig: [00:10:46] Right.

Doug Winnie: [00:10:47] Right? And so that started to create. Oh, we can do direct mail campaigns. We can be on the radio. We can put up billboards. Right. Because they have so much opportunity to really grow because they've never measured the those numbers before. And now they realize, wait, I've never actually done marketing. I really didn't do it well. Right. And that whole concept of what we like to grow by referral. No worries. I think it's in my book, it says it takes about, um, 10 to 15 years, maybe longer, to build $1 million business on referral. I don't have that kind of patience. But if you want to grow your business based on referral only, it might be a couple decades before you get to the point that it's worth $1 million.

Pete Neubig: [00:11:33] You know? And I'm like, it's so funny when I every time I talk to you, I go back in time, right? And I'll never forget, like, this is this is a man who practice what he preaches. When Steve and I first met with Doug, for the first year that you coached us, you literally just. You would not even talk to me because I was not in charge of marketing. Steve was in charge of marketing, and I would just sit there and I would try to take notes and I would try to and you're like, no, we don't need to talk about operations right now. And we literally worked on marketing for a year before we we worked on sales and we did not work on operations because you're like, it doesn't matter. You don't have enough business to worry about operations, not to.

Doug Winnie: [00:12:10] Improve it. Yeah, yeah. You have to do the basics and things. But yeah, it's like improving margins, improving systems and things. We have to have, you know, cash flow. We got to have marketing and sales. And then of course, the sales system is another big blind spot where people don't know, like how many times you should touch the customer before you should let them buy. Right. Statistically proven. That's seven or so touches. Improves the conversion rate, the percentage of people that buy Significantly. So if we talk about a landscaping business or even the property management business. Right. So you say, okay, how much is it? And they say, okay, it's $200 a month, right. Well, that's not even I mean, that's like a touch or two like and people go okay, thanks. And they hang up, uh, and then they go to the next person and then they finally try to find the cheapest, which is, of course, the worst property management company to use. Right. And then they go away and, you know, you failed because you didn't create a good sales system. You got them to call you, but you didn't follow or create a sales system, a process that allows people to buy, um, professionally, helping them buy rather than them just trying to buy on price.

Pete Neubig: [00:13:20] So what are some of the what are some of the the components of a sales system? What's what's actually in your sales system?

Doug Winnie: [00:13:26] First step, of course, is measurement just like back in the marketing. Right. Measuring it. Right. So deciding when does it switch from marketing to sales. So I'll say as soon as somebody raises their hand and says, tell me more about what you do, or I have a property or. Right. Then they move into the sales funnel. Officially, that should move from person A to person B, because there are different personalities and things like that to go from lead generation to actual sales. So then, um, you know, a couple different steps can be, oh, well, thanks so much. Let's schedule a time so we can go over what you really want out of a property management company. Like that's step one. It's not like, oh, let's um, you know, let's go have babies right now. No, let's kind of chat. Right? We need to date before we become clients. Right. Um, so now that step one should be scheduling the meeting. Now, before the meeting happens, the company should send some information over either printed material or, um, you know, something in email that talks about what you do, why you do it, how big you are, how good you are. Um, what's your uniqueness? Right. So something goes over between the scheduling appointment and the actual appointment. So now that by the time the appointment happens, you might be at three steps or four touches already, right? So then you're going to ask them some questions. Determine if they're a good fit. Right. There's plenty of, um, clients out there that aren't good fits, right. So you're just trying to see if it's a good fit or not. Um, if they really see the value. I talk about property management because we talk about building rental portfolios with our clients all the time. And I'm like, buy it and forget it. You do not want to manage any property ever for the life of your, you know, owning real estate. You do not do that. Um, but if you don't get those kind of customers right, then they're going to micromanage everything, right? And so you want to be able to figure that out. Yeah. So it's a part of a questionnaire. Um, then you might say, oh fantastic. We got a lot of information. All right. Well, let me put together the right the right program for you. Um, and let's schedule another call and then you might do that. Um, and so you end up with a seven step process or ten step process, and your conversion rate goes up because you allowed them to buy because they really wanted to buy from you. Right? And you didn't screw it up. We're just talking about price.

Pete Neubig: [00:15:53] Is another blind spot that, um, most people don't have a CRM system. Yeah.

Doug Winnie: [00:16:00] Yeah. I giggle because. Yes. Right. Sort of like the beginning of right. Um, you can start off with a spreadsheet, which is a, you know, early version of a CRM. But yeah, getting to something like that is critical. Uh, I'm chatting with some other marketing companies, and they're really good at creating processes for follow up, do good follow up systems. But, you know, if it's not in a CRM, there's nothing to follow up with and they can't help you. Like, okay, I can't read your chicken scratch on your paper. Um, so yeah, CRM is critical. Can be good ones, free ones, expensive ones, just as long as you're using it and get good at everything you're good at. Um, recording their information. Mobile number, of course. Address. Uh, good emails, their position, uh, plus the stage of their process.

Pete Neubig: [00:16:49] Even their pain point.

Doug Winnie: [00:16:50] Yeah. Their pain points where they are in the sales process. Right. So that you can find that, oh, every time people get to step four, they fall off. Oh, that probably means step three needs to be improved. But if you don't track that, you certainly will never know that.

Pete Neubig: [00:17:08] Now, you you, uh, glance over something else that I thought was really interesting. You said that the marketing and sales are not the same and that they're different personalities as well. Um, and so many people like sales and marketing just kind of rolls off the tongue, right? Oh, sales and marketing. So tell me a little bit more about about that. Like, what do you mean? Like, they're different people and they're different things.

Doug Winnie: [00:17:30] Yeah. It's really and I didn't know this either until I started getting into this. So I mean, I in my IT business, which I did really well and sold it. I didn't learn so much from that that I've now learned inside of coaching. And one of those is behavioral profiles and understanding. There are you know, we talk about getting the right people on the bus and the wrong people off the bus, but it's more about the right people on the bus and the right seat. And so, um, the person who's really going to be good at marketing is going to be really good at analysis, really good at math. Understanding how many people opened up this message, how many people viewed the website, how many people clicked this way? So the marketing person needs to become is an analytical person. A lot of people in small business think, oh, my marketing person has to be outgoing and and go out there and generate leads. That is one role inside of marketing, right? So when you get big enough, you have a network and that's their job. They go out and they generate leads because they're outgoing and chat with people. But the person running marketing has got to be behind a computer and doing all the analysis, because you can start to figure out more money belongs over here because that's working better. Oh, less money here or this needs to be improved. While the sales person's behavioral style needs to be outgoing as well as driven to get results to close the deals. Right. When the when the business. So you've got the the good marketing person that's going to be behind a computer analytical and the absolute opposite of the outgoing sales person's out there shaking hands, kissing babies, um, working on closing deals. And so and you know, and I teach a lot on DISC. It's been around for many, many decades, probably 50 years or more. Right. So and there's so much free stuff out there in DISC. You can learn a lot, but understand you can have the wrong person as a receptionist just because their behavior profile, they could be a high D, which are really kind of jerks to direct to the point, but not friendly. And their opposite is an S, and they're really outgoing. They're caretakers. They want to help all everybody. Right. And then you got the the I that are friendly and don't like paperwork or details. And then the C is really good at details including marketing things.

Pete Neubig: [00:19:50] Yeah. And if you're listening to this and you want to learn more about DISC, Doug actually did a DISC course for VPM. So if you if you create a free account on VPM and go to the VPM Academy, you can actually watch a whole course for free on, on DISC. So all right, so we got a couple of blind spots. The you have another 1 or 2 that you could think of.

Doug Winnie: [00:20:16] Sure. One of the biggest ones that I learned when I got into this, because I wasn't very good at creating a plan. Right. Or having a goal and, um, is really crazy. I just figured I'd just grow and grow as fast as I could in my old businesses. And now with a goal, it's it's actually a lot easier, right? You got to think of a sports game. What is the game of, you know, you're in sports. Your goal is to, you know, win and then win to the next level and win the Super Bowl or whatever. Win the biggest tournament, right? You have clearly defined goals, which allows you to find the weaknesses, to improve the weaknesses, grow the strengths. But without a real goal, you don't do these things. You just tend to kind of keep going, uh, and really a goal. And then you can break that long term goal into a one year goal and the one year goal into a quarterly one, and literally get quarterly down into a weekly goals. And so very, very few businesses, anybody who's worked in big business, it's all the time. Most successful big businesses, they have, you know, annual goals for the whole company. And they break it all the way down to an individual person. Um, small companies tend not to do that. Well, where you're like, yeah, there's a reason big companies are big companies because they've done the right things. So having goals is another one of the biggest blind spots inside of, um, inside of lots of businesses.

Pete Neubig: [00:21:43] Do you, uh, is it possible to have too many goals? Um, in two, in too short of a time frame? And do you recommend that we actually have goals that go all the way down to the, uh, to the team level to, you know, at each job role has has a goal. So talk a little bit more about that. Yeah. Yeah.

Doug Winnie: [00:22:02] Absolutely. You don't want to have too many goals because you're never going to achieve them. Right. So we you know we didn't create the the acronym Smart. But Smart goal is specific measurable achievable results oriented and time frame. So goals should be that way which turns out to be numerical uh, and truly achievable especially in a time frame. So and you probably want maybe eight a quarter or so. That's what. That's what we kind of stick to. If you can come up with eight good goals a quarter, um, then you can probably knock off six of them. And the bigger the company, more multiples of eight you might be able to get to. Um, and then really specifically down to a really another blind spot is having positional contracts for team members. And that's like job descriptions on steroids. And that really just means that the regular job description that you might have, but it should also include KPIs, key performance indicators. And this is where you end up with very specific goals that they, each one of the team members should be able to make. And I like to have three, um, uh, three numbers of each. And that's the expectation. So let's just say you're, you're expected to get ten leads a month. So that's that's what we're paying you for. Um, we have a stretch goal. So we start getting bonuses at 12 maybe. Right. Um, and then we've got the, um. You probably shouldn't be here if you hit six. And so if you're only hitting six leads a month, my dog can do that. So bye bye. So you got the the minimum, absolute minimum number. You got the expected one. And you got the one that we might start hitting bonuses. Uh, you know, the overachiever level. Um, so that's another one of the very important KPI, uh, blind spots is about KPIs based on goals per team members.

Pete Neubig: [00:23:52] I'm a huge fan of KPIs. Obviously, I never even heard the term till I met. You kind of told me what it was. Uh, it took us a long time to figure out the right KPIs for the right people. But once we did, the managing of the people became so easy. Like, I stopped managing by feeling and I can manage by math. And then what I love too, is I got this from you as well. Is we bonus based on if you achieved your KPI, if you if you met the KPI, you got a firm handshake. If you over achieved and you and you exceeded the KPI, then you got a bonus. And so it was very easy. All of a sudden our comp plan became easier. The bonus structure became easier and the management overall management became easier. And to be quite honest, our team was happier once we realized once, once we all knew what the KPI should be.

Doug Winnie: [00:24:39] Mhm. Yeah. Everybody understands. Yeah. Instead of the, the the employee not knowing what the owner expected. And so there's conflict and you know you're, you're replacing people and you get bad at replacing people. So you stop and then you just keep the bad people which makes businesses even harder.

Pete Neubig: [00:24:58] Yeah. Because the good people leave, they have what's called options, right? The bad people don't. They stick around because they don't have many options. Right. 

Doug Winnie: [00:25:05] Exactly. Yeah. Mhm.

Pete Neubig: [00:25:07] All right. We got time for for one more. Do you have one more. Because this is great I can sit here and talk to you all day but.

Doug Winnie: [00:25:13] Absolutely. Yeah. I'll say the, the next biggest one that comes to mind is expecting your business to get to the point that you should sell it. You don't have to, but you should expect to. And so that means that you know from day one, doing everything possible that allows the buyer to want to buy your business. So of course on day one they're not going to but on, you know, four years in five years in, if you don't get that business ready to be sold, something's going to happen that makes it, you know, either you close it down, right. I'm, you know, not quite 60 yet, but getting up there. Right. So we're all going to have health issues at some point. Um, spouses are this business is likely to become the biggest asset you will ever have, and you need to plan to sell it when you want to, not when the world demands you to. Like a health concern, death in the family. You get really sick. Something like that. That's when it's, um, for sale. I'll say a fire sale. There's the you can sell it when you're ready and you want to. Right. There's the it's a fire sale, which I encourage my clients to go look for because they're available and they've learned how to grow businesses and can fix those, or they shut down. That's what happens to a business. So a blind spot is to be, be, be growing your business so that someday it is sellable for a right price rather than it closes. It's sold at a fire sale because that's the other two options.

Pete Neubig: [00:26:51] And I would say another advantage of that is whether you decide to sell or not. But if you do build a business that it is sellable. Typically that business is running without you at that point. Is that correct?

Doug Winnie: [00:27:03] Absolutely. Exactly. Yeah. Because now you just got cash flow and you can be on vacation. You can do different things. The team is growing it, but you know, you then you got options. So when you want to sell you can and you don't have to because it's it's a good cash flow business.

Pete Neubig: [00:27:20] These are awesome Doug, thank you so much for sharing this. And I know you have a bunch more there in your book. We'll promote that here in a second. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to come back. We're going to do the lightning round. I'm gonna put you on the hot seat and we'll be right back, everybody. And we're going to put Coach Doug in the lightning round. Coach that's that's our that's our lightning. Hold on. We'll be right back. All right.

Pete Neubig: [00:27:45] Welcome back everybody. All right coach Doug, my coach, the man who got me from not knowing what the hell a KPI was to teaching about KPIs. Um, you ready to be on the hot seat, Dougie?

Doug Winnie: [00:27:59] Certainly. Go.

Pete Neubig: [00:28:00] All right, here we go. All right. What is one piece of advice you'd give someone just starting out in business?

Doug Winnie: [00:28:08] Uh. One piece. Become an amazing marketer.

Pete Neubig: [00:28:13] Does pineapple belong on pizza?

Doug Winnie: [00:28:16] Sometimes.

Pete Neubig: [00:28:18] What was your first job?

Doug Winnie: [00:28:23] My first job was working as a data analyst at General Motors, Detroit Diesel. Allison.

Pete Neubig: [00:28:30] Hey. What is your ideal vacation?

Doug Winnie: [00:28:35] Ideal vacation is probably a long cruise to some cool place that I have not been to before. I just booked that one. It leaves from Abu Dhabi.

Pete Neubig: [00:28:45] Nice. I knew you were gonna say cruise. Um, what is something that most people don't know about you?

Doug Winnie: [00:28:52] Uh, that I've been both a, uh, private pilot. Uh, I even got to a level of an instrument license. Um, and I love fast cars.

Pete Neubig: [00:29:05] If you could have dinner with anyone alive, who would it be?

Doug Winnie: [00:29:11] It's probably some leader of some world. So I would say any president or ex-president because they are really good. It doesn't even matter which side of the fence you may be on. It's just amazing how smart they really are and how much I could gain from just that knowledge.

Pete Neubig: [00:29:29] Other than your book, what is another book that you've that you've read or currently reading that you would recommend?

Doug Winnie: [00:29:37] Uh, I would say the best book that's really changed me is The Success Principles by Jack Canfield.

Pete Neubig: [00:29:45] The Success Principles by Jack Canfield.

Doug Winnie: [00:29:48] Canfield. Yep.

Pete Neubig: [00:29:48] Okay. What is one challenge you're currently having in your business?

Doug Winnie: [00:29:53] Uh, is to let go of as much of these things as possible so I can start the next business.

Pete Neubig: [00:30:00] What do you prefer, dogs or cats?

Doug Winnie: [00:30:02] Dogs.

Pete Neubig: [00:30:04] All right, dog, you are off the hot seat. No.

Doug Winnie: [00:30:07] I'm fine.

Pete Neubig: [00:30:08] All right. If somebody is, uh. You know, love what you have to say. Well, first, where can they buy the book? Uh, the book again is called Business Blind Spots Eliminate the Hidden Challenges for Exponential Growth.

Doug Winnie: [00:30:20] It's available on Amazon as well as Audible. So when I wrote it, I'm an audible person. So I made sure we had a version on Audible.com too.

Pete Neubig: [00:30:29] And if somebody wants to learn more about, you know, having you as a business coach or just learning more about business coach, how do they get in touch with you, Doug?

Doug Winnie: [00:30:37] Uh, the best place is businessasatool.com. Business as a tool .com is a short, uh, it's just understanding that it is a tool. I created that .com a long time ago. Um, and so there's other things too. We have lots of free events online as well as in person. Uh, we do lots of free business strategy sessions. So if people are interested in that, they can, you know, email me dougwinnie@actioncoach.com. And, you know, schedule those kinds of things and really make it easy for them to understand the value. Um, because ultimately it's about generating more profits in a business. That's what we really do.

Pete Neubig: [00:31:14] And Doug Winnie is Dougwinnie@actioncoach.com.

Doug Winnie: [00:31:20] Exactly.

Pete Neubig: [00:31:22] And if you're listening to this and you have not joined NARPM yet, why not? Go ahead and join NARPM already? For crying out loud, you're actually listening to our podcast. Go to narpm.org or call the good folks at (800) 782-3452. And if you are interested in hiring remote team members and you want to look at their DISC profile, go to vpm.solutions.com. We now have a DISC profile that that the remote team members can take DISC. And coming soon you'll be able to take your own DISC for free on VPMSolutions.com as a as a company, uh, user as well. Doug, thank you so much for being here today. Everybody else. We'll see you all later.

Doug Winnie: [00:32:06] Thanks a lot, Pete.